FROM:TODAY
Hosted by Jonny de Mallet Morgan, Chief Vision Officer at leadership and communication consultancy FROM:TODAY, this podcast is where leadership meets inspiration. Join Jonny as he engages with thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and innovators who share their dreams, challenges, and the stories behind their leadership journeys. With a passion for people and business, Jonny uncovers candid insights and experiences to inspire both current and aspiring leaders.
Each conversation serves as a powerful resource for anyone looking to grow, lead, and create meaningful change in their organization.
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FROM:TODAY
From Silver Medals to Sales Goals: Jazz Carlin on Success and Resilience
In this episode, Jonny de Mallet Morgan catches up with Double Olympian Jazz Carlin, who’s just back from Paris after working with Talksport and Team GB. Jazz, known for achieving two silver medals at Rio 2016, talks about her journey from being a top swimmer to diving into the business world.
Jazz opens up about the challenges of finding a new passion after retiring from competitive swimming and how she’s found surprising similarities between sports and her new role in business. From setting sales targets at SourceWhale, to coaching up-and-coming swimmers, Jazz shares how the skills that made her a champion are helping her succeed in a whole new arena.
They also chat about the mental and emotional side of life after the Olympics, dealing with perfectionism, and redefining what success really means. Whether you’re looking to switch careers or just want some inspiration, this laid-back conversation is full of insights and advice from someone who’s been at the top of their game and is now finding success in a new chapter of life.
Hi. So today I had an incredible conversation with the double Olympian, two-time silver medalist at the Rio Olympics, jazz Carlin. She was so interesting and generous with her thoughts and her time. If you aren't interested in sport, it really doesn't matter. Aren't interested in sport, it really doesn't matter. There is so much of what she has said which will help you navigate your professional life and maybe a bit of your personal life as well. So, um, it was great, enjoy. Hey, hi, jazz, how are you? I'm good. How are you?
Jazz:I'm good thanks. How are you?
Jonny:Yeah, I'm very, very good. It's a pleasure to meet you.
Jazz:Oh, you too. I've heard a lot about you. Ah, bollocks, all good things, all good things Good good, good.
Jonny:How has your day been so far?
Jazz:Busy. It's been chock-a-block Monday. I've recently well, I've been in a new role now for I'm on week six. Recently I've been in a new role now for I'm on week six, um, and I thought I guess you know you're learning lots of information, getting things going, but then I thought I was busy at the start and now it's just like gone up another level. So really just busy, but it's great. I like being busy, I like the fast-paced environment, so yeah, yeah, no complaints.
Jonny:Who do you work for?
Jazz:um, so I work for a company called source whale. Um, we are essentially, um we we sell to recruiters, but we are a platform that helps recruiters, um make their lives easier. We're kind of like their virtual pa, do all their manual tasks so they can spend the time reaching out to candidates, clients. It's quite hard to explain in one sentence, but, um, it's a sass platform, so, um, I'm managing a team there which, um, yeah, it's been really exciting oh cool really enjoying it how, how, uh, I can't so many questions already.
Jonny:How, how, how, uh, how do you feel about talking to me and Cherry today?
Jazz:Yes, yeah, no, I mean to be honest, I used to during lockdown because I had a lot more time, I did a podcast with another swimmer and we were kind of called the Honest Athletes. So we did like two series of that and I loved it. To be honest, I thought it was like I really enjoyed like talking about experiences and learnings and different points and, um, various different things. So, no, um, super excited.
Jonny:There's no pressure whatsoever. Uh, how did you find like that that transition from being an athlete into the world of work?
Jazz:yeah, it's, it's a funny one really, isn't it? Because you go from like sport, where you are kind of managed, your whole lives are managed, you know, from a week set being sent a weekly plan to being able to a yearly plan. You know exactly what you're striving towards, the targets and everything. And being able to find your place in the world, I think is a real challenge. I think um finding where your passions lie, where you will um enjoy getting up for work every day, is is quite a challenge.
Jazz:So, um, I think for me, like it was only at the start of this year, that I kind of I guess, was um exploring different career options and um I was looking more so from like a career path perspective, because it's sport you're always training for, like what is the next competition? Or you know you're on a four-year cycle to the Olympics, so you're constantly on that kind of train that feels like it's always moving towards your goal and closer towards, like I guess, competing at the highest level. So I kind of really missed that when I retired. So trying to find that was was a difficult one. Um, and then it was this year that I kind of came across like um tech, the tech space um and started working in the kind of tech sales space and I've seen so many similarities within business and sport and you know learnings that I often fall back on my experiences through sport to give examples of like you know things I've learned and how to come back from disappointments, and you know various different bits.
Jazz:They are very similar, but I think it takes a lot of time to be able to find that, and so I remember someone saying to me actually it's about six months ago and they said I want to find out, like, what is your Olympics of your career now? And it's like finding you know cause a lot of athletes do feel like their lives are kind of you know, they've been aiming for that for so long. It's all they've thought of and they can't really see beyond that. So, um, I do still feel like I'm figuring out what is my Olympics, but I do feel like I'm very happy and satisfied and loving the role and working in tech. So it does feel very similar to sport, which is exciting.
Jonny:What were the things? Well, that's very cool. What were the things that you tried and thought, oh, no way.
Jazz:To be honest, I've been quite lucky that there hasn't been many things I've been like oh no way. You know sport is so varied so you know as much as like you do the same activities and same. You know you've got to swim a certain amount of hours a week. You know one week you could be at a competition, the next week you could be on a training camp. We go to Australia for lots of different times. You had a lot of variety.
Jazz:So one thing I really tried when I retired we call it from a competitive sport was to be able to find out what did I like, what did I not like doing, what did I love, what was I passionate about? And I actually found that having a lot of variety and being able to do different things allowed me to really enjoy different tasks. So still doing a bit of coaching, I still run swim camps, I still visit schools and I still do a bit of media work. And I think giving that variety it gives me enough to like still have the enjoyment of like being able to give back to the sport, but also now in like a business perspective and that perspective. I feel like I'm getting a lot of variety, but I don't know whether there's been as many things that I've maybe tried um that I haven't liked, so that would be probably a hard one. It's probably things that there's been, a lot of things that I really enjoy, uh yeah, yeah quite hard to find one if that makes sense.
Jonny:Yeah, no, that's great, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think some of the some of the hardest times for so many people are when you have a career change or or you have an opportunity to consider your next steps and people say, oh, now find your new olympics, or find your, go, go find, find the thing which is going to like, stimulate you. You know your calling, go find your calling in life. I think, oh, my god, that's petrifying. It's like such a huge, huge task and I think it'd be incredibly stifling for so many people and probably unhelpful as well.
Jonny:I think when you're, when you, when you decide to do something so young and dedicate such a huge part of your life to it, there's not necessarily a lot of choice about it. You're like, well, I like swimming or singing or dancing or whatever it is, okay, do that Sounds fun. And then you get more successful and more successful and you continue to do it and you don't really have to consider your wants and needs too much or your desires. So I think the fact that you're going through this transition it seems to that you seem to be thriving in it is some real credit to you oh, thank you.
Jazz:Yeah, it's. It's tough because you speak to a lot of athletes and, um, it is a very daunting, as you said, quite a petrifying time to think what, what is next. You know, as sport the way it works is, you know you can't do it forever unless you, I guess, turn into a role where you're kind of supporting other athletes. But you know it's not that, um, I guess, forever end game. You know you can, I guess, have the, the goals and stuff, but normally you you retire around your 30s. Sometimes people might last longer, but it is finding again and, as you said, being able to understand when you've dedicated your life.
Jazz:You know my life was swimming, sleeping, eating, all of those things. That was my life. And even from like a social aspect, you know your life is revolved around the sport. It's quite unsociable. You make a lot of friends in the sport, um, and you can kind of detach yourself quite a bit from I guess some of you know friends that are around that you know have different interests now and you can't commit to some of the social stuff because you've got to be up at six in the morning to go swimming and all those different things.
Jazz:So your kind of life all around it from like socially, from professionally, from everything um is all kind of based around sports. So it doesn't always just necessarily feel like from a career perspective, but like a whole lifestyle change absolutely um, so it definitely.
Jazz:I do try and like speak to as many people as well once they're leaving sport because, um, you know, I think having that support system of people that have been through it as well definitely plays a big part because, you know, you can feel like you're the only one that's gone through it and it's a really tough time. But, um, to be able to support people that are going through it as well, I think, um, I wish more was done for sports people coming away from it. Um, if I can, I guess, help helping it a little way at all, just by being a bit of a support, then, um, you know, it's I feel, like it's, I guess, for me, from like a personal satisfaction perspective, to know that I can maybe help someone along the way that's awesome.
Jonny:I totally understand what you mean. But as an actor for a long time, and we have very similar sort of situations or problems because you work when everybody else is having fun and socializing and and everybody within your community is doing the same thing and and and suffering the same problems oh, my bloody agent this and all that stupid casting director that and you know all that, all that kind of stuff and and and and it's very, very hard. I think when you, when you choose a career path that by its by its nature, defines who you are, that by its nature defines who you are, be it an athlete or an actor or whatever, then it's incredibly hard to navigate the next steps where you're not necessarily defined by your career. And also, I love that idea of the support networks and the communities to help people through that, because we have to learn from each other, right?
Jazz:so um, there is um around, like your identity. I think that's that's a huge thing and um, you know, I think it's still something that I kind of come to terms with now. Um, because you know, a lot of people do want to talk to me about swimming and it's like known for, like jazz the swimmer, and um, having that kind of identity as well when looking at other things and options and whether that be careers or lifestyle or lives in general, it's very difficult because you do feel like an identity. Like you know, when leaving sport, I felt like I was like jazz the swimmer. People know me from swimming and most people wanted to speak to me about swimming. They weren't like oh, what's what you like doing? What are you?
Jazz:interested in like everyone wanted to speak about, like oh, what was it like competing at the Olympics, or you know, all those kind of very swimming related questions. So for me to even be able to find out, like, what do I enjoy doing? What do I like, what are my passions, what is like my interest?
Jazz:what do I like to do on a Sunday when I don't have to think about training tomorrow morning and I don't have to recover, like I used to yeah, yeah, yeah it takes um some time to adjust and adapt and to find that again and find what, what do I like doing, what do I enjoy?
Jonny:because I think that definitely takes some time to adapt to and do you think that you've been able to identify those things?
Jazz:I do and I do still think I'm kind of like a work in progress as well, um, and it's something that I, I am quite conscious of and I do try and, like you know, have new experiences.
Jazz:And you know, when I was swimming, you know you wouldn't go for a walk on your day off because it would be like you want to rest your legs because you've got either a competition coming up or you've got training and you have to, I guess, always think ahead of those decisions that you make, how it's going to impact you either the following week in training or in a competition, whereas now I guess it's doing those things but thinking, you know, how can I give myself time for jazz now? That's going to allow me to feel at my best, or that's gonna, you know, make me feel refreshed for a new week, or all those little things. So now I love going for long walks, I love, like you, going to the beach and getting in the sea when it's really cold, or like you know, all those little bits that really when I was swimming were neglected and I couldn't do.
Jazz:I feel like I'm really trying to find that, but I do still think that's a work in progress as well. It's still something that I believe I've got to keep working on, and you know things well. It's still something that I believe I've got to keep working on, and you know, things change and interests change and lifestyles change. So being able to find, like, um, what is it that's gonna allow me to feel like I'm at my best and happy and enjoying myself and, um, challenging myself as well, I think that's super important because, as an athlete, we're always used to challenging ourselves and pushing ourselves and striving towards something, so I need things that are gonna, like, make me feel like I'm being challenged in a way. So, yeah, it's super interesting actually super interesting.
Jonny:I mean, I don't think I've worked it out. You know, especially we. We've got a, we've got a young family, we've got a baby and a six-year-old, and just carving out space and time to actually, without judgment, find the things that you enjoy, which aren't to do with anything other than relaxation, enjoyment and and the the personal growth is a byproduct of all of that. You said that, um, you were there. There are things from sport that you now have in your day-to-day life that you've sort of transitioned and that people at work um, that helps you at work do. Do you do what? What are those things? You know your colleagues and they're like you know how does it influence your colleagues and the people that you lead?
Jazz:yeah, it's um.
Jonny:That was the worst question I've ever asked I like mumbled for 30 seconds then, so no no, I think it is something I use a lot.
Jazz:I even used it this morning, um, in a meeting and I was chatting to the team around.
Jazz:You know we all have these like desired outcomes. You know, for us we are kind of in that kind of market of sales where there are targets of hitting a certain amount, you know, per month, and I think that does weigh quite heavy on a lot of people. You know, I want to hit this, I want to hit this target so I can achieve X and you know, to see growth to all those kinds of different things. And even this morning I was talking about it. You know, in swimming, like I would never go into a competition or towards like the kind of my senior career, definitely not so much my junior but I would never go in and think, you know, I'm going to swim this time and I'm going to do this place, I'm going to win this medal, like, as much as that is like a goal and something that I want to achieve, I would always go into the race and we'd break it down into like process goals. So it's like, what are those little things that I'm going to do? I say little things, but in like I'm breaking it down. So, like in a race, I would be like how am I going to break this race down into a process of what I'm going to focus on in that race that's going to allow me to achieve, like, my desired outcome of the race? Um, so try and like break it down into process goals and again it it's like I guess everyone is so different.
Jazz:I try and like say the messages all the time, like everyone's process of trying to reach their desired outcome is so different. So, whether that is, you know, I've said someone's process goal for the week might be getting out for a 30 minute walk before they, you know, go on to meet it, or various different bits, so they can perform at their best by just having a 30-minute walk or getting outside for some fresh air or some people. It might be that they need to bring in a certain amount of numbers and different things. Obviously this is from more of a sales perspective, but finding those processes in the week that's going to allow you to put yourself in the best position to achieve your targets of the week or the month, et cetera. So I've tried to like, I guess, get people to think about things a little bit differently and even like some of those things through sport, it's, like you know, process goals are super important because, you know, if we always, always focus on the outcome A, you probably don't enjoy the process of it all and B, you know, you've probably forgotten about some of those little things that can actually make a big difference to help you be at your best.
Jazz:So that was kind of just like one example this morning, but I use it, you know, in lots of different ways, I think in business there's highs, there's lows. Some weeks are more challenging than others and you know being able to like, constantly remind, remind yourselves of those little things, but everyone's so different. I try, and you know, work with every, um, every, everyone that I work with. I try and understand them as best possible to be able to figure out how can I support them in the best way and how can I get the most out of them to be able to them out, how can I support them in the best way and how can I get the most out of them to be able to them feel like they're at their best. So it's an interesting one, but, um, I do use sport a lot as examples. I hope they don't mind. I haven't actually asked them, but um, it's something I can refer to a lot yeah, I know, but it makes perfect sense and what you said is so interesting.
Jonny:And we were talking, yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. A few years ago I was talking to maybe six, seven years ago I was talking to, um, a friend of mine and his and his mother, uh, and, and my friend had, uh, recently lost his father, right? So it was really, you know, a really sad time for them, and I was asking how it was all going and his mother was saying it was fine, and the subject of the eulogy came up, and his mother's a psychologist and his mother's a psychologist and his brother's a psychologist, right. And? And she said, uh, me and my other son were discussing who was going to do the eulogy, and I said, no, it was my husband, I'm going to do the eulogy. I said, wow, that must have been tremendously difficult for you. And she was like, yeah, yeah, it was.
Jonny:And she relayed the conversation that she had with her other son not my friend, her other son and she said, um, she said to her other son I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna rise to the occasion and I'm going to deliver this, this, this eulogy, and her son said, no, no, no, mom, you're not going to rise to the occasion, you're going to fall back on your training, and I was like, oh my god, like it was like this mind-blowing, like, like uh uh moment for me, and it's exactly what you said about you know, whether it's the olympics, speaking at somewhere, that you, which is obviously very, uh, emotional, very challenging, whether it's uh, uh going into a sales meeting, all that kind of thing, if you think you're going to do something extraordinary, if you focus on that, the output, then you're setting yourself up for failure. And it's such an amazing lesson that you're helping people with to um, to to, to fall back on something as opposed to rise to something extraordinary, because it's not extraordinary, it's like little things, just in order, which.
Jazz:I think is it's really wonderful and such a huge gift to them, so that's amazing yeah, it is, um, when, when you think about things and like obviously I would always, you know, like to feel like I'd given my best, that was like again, as you said, it's like going back to like, you know, I've done all the hours of training. That's always what I'd kind of remind myself heading into it. You know, when the nerves creep up and the thoughts and feelings before a competition, it's kind of reminding yourself, you know, as you said, it's like I've, I, it's like I've done all the hours of training, like I'm as best prepared I can be for this. And there are like so many different learnings that can be used in so many different aspects, and some things are more challenging and, you know, a lot tougher, I think, than others, but there are so many different things that you can take from various different avenues and paths and things that can relate.
Jazz:So I try and use as many kind of examples and share as much, because I think if we can all kind of try and learn from those and share them, they're going to be able to help support people as best possible I think yeah, 100% now in your, in your career pre, pre-sales, pre-sass um, you, I I'm assuming it was bloody hard work, right, and I'm assuming that there were.
Jonny:It wasn't plain sailing all the way. How did that? What were the biggest challenges that you faced and how did how did you get over them?
Jazz:I'll keep it that yeah, it's um, I think if you're an athlete and you walk away from sport and you've not really had any challenges, I would say that's very rare. Um, so it's completely normal and I think I look at things a lot differently now, as I think that's one of the key things is, when I was um, I think I would see things slightly different to how I'd maybe reflect on them now, which, I think you know, the art and power of reflection is huge. Um, in 2012, I, well, in 2011, I actually found out I had glandular fever and I was kind of on that path to um to compete, like maybe, at the London Olympics. I was kind of in that line, you know where, if things had gone well, I was kind of in line to go to the London Olympics, but I actually missed out on on London. So, um, you know, I was really ill for for a few weeks, um, well, ill every three weeks really, with tonsillitis, um, and for maybe a year and a half, I was kind of, you know, in bed a lot, sleeping a lot and, um, I couldn't get any consistent block of training in. So, um, I ended up achieving the qualifying time to go to the London Olympics, but they only take two per event and I was fourth. So technically I'd achieved the time to go, but on the day wasn't quite good enough.
Jazz:So I think, looking back, that was the most challenging time and I think it's a difficult one. You know, as swimmers you are part of a team but it's down to your individual performances really on the day and to obviously see then like friends and teammates you know, over the moon with happiness and achieved the times and qualifications to go. And I knew deep down that I wouldn't be part of part of that team and um, going to the olympics was was so disappointing um, I nearly walked away from the sport. I was um pretty close to packing it in, just thinking I just don't think I can go through this again. And I think, you know, with the olympics it's every four years. It's not like, oh, I've got another chance next week or I've got another chance next year. It's like you've got to think four years is is the next olympics? And I've got to try and get myself in the frame to think can I, can I do this for another four years? Can I wake up at five in the morning when it's dark outside and it's wet outside and I've got to jump into a pool and train 75 kilometers a week. Have I got that in me? Um, but um, I actually had a conversation with one of my old coaches and he coached me from the age of probably 10 to 14 and, um, we kind of talked it through and he was very much like a mentor for me throughout my career, both like as a swimmer but then more so as a friend really, and um, he was there through it all and he kind of said, oh, just why don't you give it one more, one more, go for Rio. And I remember like we had this big hug and then it was like me then on the journey to, to go to Rio.
Jazz:But I think, you know it did take its toll on me. I think you know, I guess that one moment has kind of it's that kind of shockwave effect where you know you can have that disappointment and real upset and heartache. But for me it was kind of like the the effects of it afterwards from, you know, my confidence was hugely knocked and didn't believe in myself at all. I was going into every competition and, you know, had no belief or confidence I was going to do well, um, and then I guess it turned me into um, like I guess as an athlete you're always striving to like you know you think it can be better, but I've turned into this like extreme perfectionist where I was never satisfied with anything whether that was in training, whether that was in competitions, like I was so hard on myself and I guess in some aspects it probably helped me because I was always striving to, like you know, be better and faster.
Jazz:but it took its toll on me mentally, I think, because when you set this bar so high of yourself, you know, you're kind of setting yourself up for, like you know, the majority of the time I was really disappointed with like training or competitions and, um, I think that can be very demanding on your mental health.
Jazz:So, um, you know, I lived it, breathed it. Everything was like swimming and on that journey, um, so in turn, you know, after four years I felt like I was kind of swimming with a lot of um demons on my back really, especially going into the Rio Olympic trials, because I felt like I'd had so much that I'd built up for this moment and luckily, obviously, I did qualify and it all worked out in the end. But, um, I guess the biggest hit for me after was after the Rio Olympics. It was kind of coming back to to normal again and I, it was all I'd thought about, dreamt about, you know, for four years, all in my mind. So then I kind of came crashing down really after after the Olympics and I guess some people might think, you know, you'd achieved everything you'd wanted to, you'd worked so hard for it and it was a dream of mine from a young age. But then come back to real life, if you say, and come back to like normal and thinking, well, that's everything, all I've been thinking about, all I've been working towards, how do I reassess, how do I refocus, what do I even want to do now. So I kind of went through maybe guess, the challenge of missing out on the London 2012 Olympics and then came away with probably the dream outcome in Rio winning two silver medals.
Jazz:But then, after Rio, it really hit me quite hard, you know, being able to come back round again and come back to finding jazz again. What do I enjoy? What do I still want? Finding jazz again. What do I enjoy? What do I still want to do? Um, what do I still enjoy? So I've kind of gone through it, through through a couple of different ways, um, but, yeah, so many learnings from them both.
Jazz:Really, and, as I said, when I look back a lot of the time, you know, I didn't really use reflection as much when I was, when I was swimming, necessarily, it was always aiming for the next competition. It's like do one competition, what's next, what's next? It was never really sit, reflect, you know, and, um, looking after myself from like a mental wellbeing side of things, which I look back at things a lot differently now and I think it's a lot easier, you know, when you've stepped away from it, to think, oh, you know, I wish I'd given myself some time or pat myself on the back of what of the great things that I'd done, because at the time I just didn't appreciate them. I didn't appreciate those little things which I really wish I had. But yeah, yeah, sorry, that was probably quite a long that was a fantastic answer.
Jonny:Thank you so much. And. And breathes more questions. So do you? How quickly after the podium, let's say, did you have that, uh, existential crisis?
Jazz:yeah, it was. Um, it's a funny one because, um, even at the olympics like it's quite a crazy thing um, the swimming events were starting from 10 pm and we finished around 12 pm, midnight to 1 am. Um, so, like my, I had obviously a couple of, I had two events that week and you know, after the first event it's kind of like you go back and you don't get back to your room in the athletes village till two or three in the morning and then, obviously, with the time difference and everything, and I think it was the middle of the night for everyone back home and you know, being able to like even sit up and like take it all in, you couldn't really it was. Then I had to rest for the next event and then it was the same. You know, after I'd finished my swims at the Olympics, got back to the Athletes' Village and I'd just come away with two silver medals and had a drugs test and media and didn't get back to the Athletes' Village till two in the morning and I remember I went to the food hall, which is open 24 hours, and I just sat and I like ate pizza and like by myself and I was like I've literally just like come away with my dream two silver medals and I'm just sat eating pizza at three in the morning on my own yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
Jazz:not able to like celebrate with anyone because obviously, the security and various different things and, um, it's quite a lonely place because you feel like, oh, I've achieved everything I'd wanted to, but at that time felt quite um isolated because I was on my own and I it's not like you can go and celebrate with all your loved ones and you can have all this time. Um, but I think more so from what I was talking about, the kind of come down to reality. I remember um watching all the sports after, from you know, going to the boxing, going to the taekwondo, all different sports, the excitement of being in that olympic bubble. And then I remember, even on the flight home, um, the excitement, you know, of being on a flight with all the athletes that you know we were celebrating best ever games etc. And sky news were following the plane on the news and seeing where we were and coming down, and there was kind of like the whole excitement and I kind of enjoyed it for a couple of days.
Jazz:And then I remember um going on the train home and I saw someone and it was like, oh, um, now the Olympics is over, tokyo, tokyo's not far away now, and it was like, oh, it was kind of moved on to like you know, talking about Tokyo and it was like, oh, it was kind of moved on to like you know, talking about Tokyo. And it was like even in some interviews, people like, oh, so what do you think about the next Olympics? And I was like whoa, I've literally just come back from like Rio, like that was all I've been aiming for. But I guess it opens me. You know, people move on so quickly. It's as I said, you feel like you're on that constant moving train and you know, if you get off, like the train is still going to be moving, the train is still going towards, going towards the next Olympics. That is what people are talking about and, as great as I did have quite a few, like some amazing experiences, um, I really struggled to adjust my mindset to like what? What do I want to do next? I hadn't even thought about do I want to go to another Olympics?
Jazz:I was 25, going on 26 at the time, which, for swimming, is seen as quite a senior, should I say athlete but I hadn't even given myself time to even think. Is this something I want to do for another four years? Is this something I'm prepared to. You know, as I, as we say, you know you have to sack. Is it a sacrifice or is it a choice? Probably a choice, you know. Do I want to choose to give my life to sport and, um, you know, I guess, say no to best friends, weddings, and say no to lots of different things? And or, what do I want? What do I want? And I think that kind of reality of coming down, of knowing like not feeling quite lost, feeling not sure what I wanted anymore, what was, um, I'd achieved everything I'd want to. What was it kind of felt like? What was my purpose?
Jazz:now, and it sounds really strange to say, but at the time when it's your life and it's all you can think about, dream about everything and that's taken away and it's finished and it's over, how do you like restart? And you know, refocus, um. So that was quite soon really. I'd say probably a couple of months after um coming back, um, which for a lot of people would probably find it quite strange, because you know you've been to Olympics, you did everything you wanted to, but that kind of it was like having that turn at the end of the tunnel and being at the end of the tunnel and you're there and you're like, oh, what's?
Jonny:what's next?
Jazz:and I really didn't know what was next.
Jonny:To be honest, yeah, for sure that. Yeah, I bet with that. Athletes that's, that's really common, not just athletes, anyone who has like a finite thing that they're focusing on. When that thing's done, they're like well, what now? And was it worth it? And I'm really interested to know whether you know you were talking about getting to Rio. You didn't look after yourself, your well-being and your mental health. And I'm curious is there do their ends justify the means?
Jazz:it's. It's funny, isn't it? Um, again, as I say, like that kind of art of reflection, you never really um sit back and appreciate it. I wouldn't have changed my story, my story, my journey. I guess missing out on London 2012, hugely disappointing for me, but when I look back, I would never have changed that because I think, you know, it allowed me to learn, develop and come back from a dark place to then go on and achieve what I wanted to in the sport.
Jazz:Um, I think you know, for me, like to go to the Olympics to win two silver medals. A lot of people want to see the medals. They're like, oh, the medal is like the thing that everyone is excited to see. You know, oh, I've never seen an Olympic medal, but for me, like I sounds quite funny, but I actually like forget about them sometimes, but it's more so like the feeling and the knowing of the that I've kind of gone through the journey and the highs, the lows. That sits better with me.
Jazz:So being able to think, you know, I came from a really challenging, tough time, but then to come back, um, to come back from it and achieve, to be, to be second in the world at the Olympics, it's that kind of feeling, um, but I do like it was a huge dream of mine to do it.
Jazz:So, um, I think if my life didn't have swimming in it, it would feel very strange. Um, do I wish that I had looked after myself a bit more and, um, I guess, reflected a bit more on all those different things? 100%. But, um, I think you know, as a youngster, having that dream and that love of sport and swimming from a very young age to go on and, um, achieve my very best, and you know that kind of a dream that most you know can only have a dream of, and I managed to. It was only a dream for me to then go on to the Olympics. So I do feel very lucky to have had the journey, but also, more so, as I said, probably, the learnings and the journey brought so much more than the outcome itself yeah, yeah, that, yeah, that is so fascinating.
Jonny:I think a lot about, I guess, me personally, other people within my network, personally and professionally like the cost, the emotional cost, of achieving things, and does great success need to cost a lot for your well-being and your mental health?
Jazz:it is a fascinating um area I think um yeah because it is tough, isn't?
Jazz:it is to be able to um, I guess you look, as I said, I look back at things a lot differently now, but there are so many things you know it's very demanding on you and I think it's it's trying. You know, I try and speak to everyone around, like you know what we deem successful and like how you view success, like I think I've even changed it over time. Like for me now, um, like recently married and all those kinds- of congratulations. Oh, thank you.
Jazz:But, like to me now, like success is like being able to challenge myself, um in an in a new environment, to be able to um, as I said, like finding like my path. I feel like I'm striving towards something. But also success for me is, you know, being able to have a happy life and to be able to enjoy my time, like with my husband, and like all those small things in life. To me, having that balance is like what I deem as like success. So I it's we always focus success on like, as we say, kind of like those outcome outcomes, whether from a sport perspective obviously you know, most of the time it's medals, you're just what you judged on, what you are kind of drilled into at a young age is like this is successful if you win this medal, if, if you, if you do this, you're deemed success. But like we never really had conversations at a young age of like you know what, what is success?
Jazz:And that's why I try and give, when I'm working on swim camps or when I'm working with swimmers, like, not everyone has that desire or drive to compete at the highest level of the sport, but that's okay, that is okay.
Jazz:Like to them, success might be just enjoying being in the water, enjoying swimming and the people that they meet and the experiences that they have and different things. That is not and that is not any less successful or deemed any less valuable just because they have not gone on to compete at the highest level. So I try and just give kids, like, a positive experience of sport, or adults as well. For me it's like how can I give them a positive experience of sport that is going to either allow them to carry on swimming throughout their lives Because you can swim until your whatever age, until you decide you don't want to and how can I make sure that they have as much fun and positive experience that they will remember it and have those memories to look back on? Um, so I do find the kind of success thing is is very it's varied and I think it's important to understand what people's idea of success, but I do think it is changing.
Jonny:I think, um, it is changing and we're kind of looking at it more of maybe like a holistic approach now, where you know it's not just about that kind of highest level or what everyone pushes down your neck, what we see on TV or what we see, you know, in sport on with the Olympics, like it's not all about that and everyone's success is so different, so yeah, so, looking at success, this could be our last question, because I know that you're you're carving out time to speak to us, so thank you, but, um, do you think that you can have success and all the other great things you were talking about and have that lovely sort of family and personal interests and you know, can you have it all, or do you have to sacrifice to the point of pain? I?
Jazz:think it's, um, the magic question, isn't it really? Um, and I think it's um being able to strip things back, which I try and do quite a lot? Um, and like identifying like, what does success to me look like? And it's like, sometimes it's like just doing like a brainstorm. It's like I do still feel like I'm on a constant path of trying to find that myself. Um, but like, what does success look like?
Jazz:Whether it is, you know, those kind of lifestyle and you know time, you know family different things have different meanings to so many different people um, but I think it's super important to always like you know, even when there are environments can change various different things to be able to give yourself time for those little things to make you you that really are like, oh, I love, I just love doing that.
Jazz:I love, you know, going for long walks. I love going to the beach and getting in the cold water, because it just like makes me feel alive. I think it's difficult. I think we all measure success in very different ways, but it's sometimes like stripping things back, to think you know what is important of me and what do I think, what would I kind of mark these things that are most important for me and how I can, um you know, feel like I'm at my best and that I'm like, satisfied and getting everything that I need from life. I guess, um, which is a tough one, because I think there are always so many different things going on, and I do think I'm always, as I said, always feel like I'm learning, growing, developing.
Jonny:Great.
Jazz:And like being like you know, being open to things, and things do change.
Jazz:You know, I have always gone away in the winter with swimming. You know, it was like as soon as it got cold, it was like let's go to Australia, we'll train there for six weeks, and I'd be like, yes, great. But I was saying, like you know, winter for me is really tough because, um, the days feel shorter, it's colder. I can't, you know, do the long walks. You know they're in the pitch black and you're like I love the outdoors and all those kinds of different things. And like I've even found myself like, oh God, like the winter kind of changing my mindset and, I think, being able to feel like you know how am I going to get the most out of this winter and like, you know, breaking down the day when there is time for me, you know what am I going to do. That's going to allow me to feel like I'm at my best. But I don't feel like I've really answered that question because it's it's such a difficult one oh yeah, it's a really hard question.
Jonny:The reason I ask it is, uh, is because I see a lot of our clients and friends of mine who super, super successful, you know, very wealthy, very senior within their industries and you think, and some of them very miserable, and I think you know, is it what is it worth it? But can they be as successful and and it not hurt them?
Jonny:yeah so and and I would hope to think that it is possible, but I think it requires a gear change culturally, both in terms of working culture and culture of our society. Really so a change in the zeitgeist, really so a change in the zeitgeist and and I think it's it's been so wonderful talking to you and I'm so grateful because I think you're you're obviously such a thoughtful and generous leader, right? I think that everything you've said has, has is really great, but I found it a really fascinating conversation and I'm very grateful to spend this time with you.
Jazz:so, thank you oh no, thank you. I think it's even when you say about, kind of like the leaders and the culture and the environment. It's so true and you know I see um it from the team now that I'm working with and you know if, um, we've got very flexible kind of working, you know, from home or you can go into the office if you want to and like I see it. Now you know if, like, I like to play netball and I really enjoy playing netball, so on the days I have netball, it's like I like to be able to, you know, work from home and then I can go off to netball and do something that I enjoy and like having that flexibility of you know whether it's an extra hour in the mornings, because whether it's to spend time with kids or whether it's, you know, taking them to school, or whether it's getting up and doing yoga or doing something that like is your time that allows you to kind of start your day.
Jazz:I think having those kind of flexible working environments. I know there's kind of a lot of noise, maybe on LinkedIn, around pros and cons of both um, but I'm very open I think. I think you've got to be quite open to be able to figure out what is the best for for the people and, um, exactly, yeah, find it finding that um as a leader. I can completely understand. I think, I think you can have both, but I think, um, you know it's important to be able to have that kind of culture and flexibility, but also, like I guess, really caring, like I really care about making sure people are okay and that people are um, feeling like they have time for themselves as well.
Jonny:It's vital.
Jazz:To do the things they love to do, things that you know makes them unique and makes them individual. So, yeah, it's always. I could probably talk about it for hours, to be honest.
Jonny:Yeah, I mean, we would have a very happy conversation because we feel exactly the same. Happy conversation because we feel exactly the same, so it. But you know, I think it is your responsibility as a leader to be in service to the people that you have you sort of relying on you to help nurture their careers. And I feel that that when someone, when you employ someone, you have a huge responsibility because they are lending you their talents and they're lending you their career and it's your job to nurture that. But I think they're on the other side of the coin. I think that comes with a lot of responsibility from the people that, uh, are being employed. But, um, certainly how, how I look at it anyway, yeah, anyway, jazz, once again, thank you so much and have a fantastic rest of the day thank you so much.
Jazz:No, it was so lovely to meet you and uh cat. Through things my brain's like got so much to so much going on. Yeah, it's great it's great.
