David Richmond, CBE: Purpose-Driven Leadership - Navigating Change and Resilience

In this episode, Jonny talks to David Richmond, CBE. David is an experienced senior leader who, following a long and successful military career, has worked as an interim executive, senior civil servant, director in the 3rd sector, and an independent government advisor. He also chairs Boccia UK and was on the board of the London Irish Women bid to enter the top tier of women’s professional rugby. He is now CEO at Royal Hospital Chelsea, and Executive Coach at FROM:TODAY.

Jonny and David delve into the intersection of purpose, identity, and leadership across various spheres of life. Drawing from personal experiences in the military, sports, and corporate worlds, David offers insight into the challenges of transitioning from structured environments to civilian life. Through candid reflections, they talk about the importance of clarity and unity of purpose in fostering motivation and resilience amidst change.

Throughout the conversation, they explore the complexities of defining personal identity beyond professional roles and the transformative power of purpose-driven leadership. They share anecdotes that highlight the impact of introspection and self-awareness in understanding individual motivations and values. They emphasise the role of leaders in creating environments that prioritise purpose and development over short-term profits, driving organisational success and employee fulfillment.

The conversation navigates the intricacies of purpose and leadership, uncovering key strategies for fostering alignment, trust, and autonomy within teams. Through engaging dialogue and practical insights, this podcast offers a compelling exploration of how clarity of purpose can drive personal and organisational growth, shaping a more fulfilling and resilient future for all.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jonny: David so you have been somewhat of a mentor to me, maybe you didn't realize, but for about four years.

[00:00:09] Jonny: And you've been a great friend to me for that time, someone I can ring up and say, I'm lost or someone I can, , be curious with And I have greatly appreciated it. , one of the, the so thank you. One of a defining moment for me, and this isn't I'm not trying to, blow smoke, is that, when, when we first met, we met because a mutual connection of ours was hosting a networking event.

[00:00:38] Jonny: And after he said you spoke and after I was like, can you introduce me to David and we went for a coffee and we had a chat. And, you were very curious about what we were doing. And, , I thought to myself, wow, what a compliment that someone like you could have interest in what Chris and I were [00:01:00] doing.

[00:01:00] Jonny: So that was my experience of first. meeting you. So I just 

[00:01:05] David: wanted to share that. That's very kind. I do remember when we met, that networking thing, and that was evening Kong, who was our mutual friend, his guest speaker hadn't turned up for whatever reason, and he tapped me on the shoulder and said guest speaker hasn't turned up, I'm going to introduce you in a minute.

[00:01:26] David: Great. You do a couple of minutes on Help for Heroes as it was, and I just left, I just left them. And I thought, surely you're joking. He said, no, no. And then he turned and he said, ladies and gentlemen, he clapped his hands and then off we went. So, that was the event. It sticks very clearly in my mind for that reason, because I then sort of waxed lyrical for 10 minutes or so about, completely off the top of my head about about Help for Heroes.

[00:01:51] David: And then, yes, I mean, I remember the coffee and the brand exchange as it was, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always find it fascinating what you and Christopher are up to and, and [00:02:00] the things you were engaged in and the, what you're trying to achieve and, and all of that, because I, I, I've always, I, I'm always fascinated, by what, I suppose there's a natural nosiness, isn't there?

[00:02:09] David: I'm always fascinated what other people are up to. And not for any, not for any sort of, any reason other than curiosity. And and I just found that you, you were both really engaging, really enthusiastic. Clearly, and I think passion, passionate is a, a hugely over overused word, but you are clearly passionate and hugely committed to what you were trying to achieve.

[00:02:32] David: And what I like and continue to like actually what you, you bring to it is the sort of yin and the yang of you and Chris being quite different characters, but also that mesh together two different characters, it worked together really well, but you bring something different, it's not corporate, it's a different view, you've got an entirely different background, you're an acting background, all that kind of stuff, which just brings a different perspective to the work that you do and to your audiences and your clients, [00:03:00] because I've long believed that, and in the areas I've worked, I've seen this, you know, I've long believed if you continue to ask the same sorts of people the questions, you'll continue to get the same sorts of answers.

[00:03:13] David: And if we keep getting the same sorts of answers, but keep asking questions, then presumably we weren't happy with the set of answers we got the last time. So stop asking the same group of people. And that, different, that sort of diversity of background, diversity of thought, the yin and the yang of the different skills and experiences that you and Chris bring is really powerful.

[00:03:36] David: And I was really fascinated by it. 

[00:03:38] Jonny: Oh, well, fantastic. Thank you very much. That's great. No, yeah, I said, I sort of firmly believe in in, and it's an obvious thing to say, but the value in diversity of thought. I mean, it's so, so, so obvious, but so I agree with. What you say, stop asking the same questions of the same people.[00:04:00] 

[00:04:00] David: Yeah, and then expect, I mean, and then expecting a different result sort of thing. It's, it's not that that group of people don't have a valid view, but it's not being leavened or informed by anything else. 

[00:04:16] Jonny: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there has to be evolution. 

[00:04:19] David: Right. Exactly that. 

[00:04:22] Jonny: So, David, you know, obviously you work now a lot in, in in resilience.

[00:04:30] Jonny: And you also have since leaving the army, you've worked a lot with helping people specifically, ex military, live, thrive, after leaving, after leaving the military, which is a very hard transition, I should imagine.

[00:04:51] Jonny: What prompted you to I don't know if dedicate is too strong a word, but dedicate this next chapter of [00:05:00] your life leaving the army to helping ex service people? 

[00:05:05] David: I think, there's probably a couple of things. I've always enjoyed, I mean, from a very personal perspective, I've, I've, Always take a huge amount of pleasure in seeing other people succeed and, and seeing capable, well, but actually it's not just capable people.

[00:05:20] David: I mean, everybody is capable to some degree or another, but seeing people sort of get to, to develop in their own careers and succeed, whatever success means to them, and it means something different to all of us. And I've always enjoyed that whether they were people in uniform or, or not. And, and then as I sort of left the military I could see the challenges that, that such a big cohort of capable, experienced, motivated young men and women have as they come out of a, what a structured environment.

[00:05:52] David: Although it's probably not as structured as people who've never been in it think, it is structured the same. And seeing that, [00:06:00] and I experienced it to some degree myself although not as acutely as some, I think, it is, you go from an organization where there's a very clear sense of identity, there's a very clear sense of team, it's about team before self and all that kind of Yeah, good stuff.

[00:06:13] David: And a very clear sense of purpose. And a unity of purpose about, about the organization irrespective of what cat badge you wear or or color of uniform you have. This is a singularity, unity of purpose, clarity, that that is incredibly helpful. And then you see people sort start, make the decision to leave and they step away from all of that.

[00:06:34] David: And that can be such a big, that's such a big culture shock because of course you go into, for example, be a slightly more chaotic environment. It's not so structured. And by structured I don't mean having everything done for you. I just mean there's a structure to the, to the organization. Your civilian life isn't, isn't, isn't the same unless you are in an organization, I guess.

[00:06:58] David: And there's, you can have that sense of [00:07:00] loss of entity and loss of purpose, person purpose which, which can affect your motivation and your focus and make life quite hard. You can, you can get that, generate that sense of wheel spin. You know, you're getting nowhere because you're not. You find it difficult to sort of belay yourself on, you connect into things.

[00:07:18] David: And I, and I saw that, and I thought actually, And I saw it also in, in the sporting world, where I did still do some work with an organization called Switch the Play, which is, helps professional athletes as they retire and move on away from whatever their sport is into something else. They experience the same thing, you know, for, for very many years, they've been identifying, for some of them, especially sports people, they've been identified by what they do, rather than who they are.

[00:07:47] David: For many of them, since they were really little. Good at this sport. That's what they are. And then, you know, that culture shock is they leave that sense of purpose and direction and clarity is lost and you can, you can become lost through that. [00:08:00] So I, I enjoy just helping people see through that. And I think so many in so many areas, reminding them, and you ought to, you are reminding them so often.

[00:08:09] David: And only in some cases uncovering for them what their skills and their experiences and their talents and their capabilities really are and how they translate into. A civilian workplace or civilian life. I mean, work is only part of you, only part of you. It's not a big part of you inevitably, but it's only part of you.

[00:08:31] Jonny: I think this, this is a problem which is going to become more and more apparent. Not just, you look at, you look at individuals who are defined by their, their job that they've had. Whether it's through military, whether it's through sport, whether it's through my experience in acting Having a changing career is, is always felt inevitable, [00:09:00] irrelevant of success terrifying, not because you'd be doing something different, but because what you are is so intrinsically connected with the job that you do.

[00:09:18] Jonny: And what's quite interestingly interesting and I and this is anecdotal. Is there any anything else, but I have many conversations with people around my age, where people where they are stuck in their jobs and petrified to leave. Because they are not necessarily defined by being a buyer for a certain company, but by, but they are, they are certainly defined by their salary expectations and and the lifestyle that they want to leave and are too scared [00:10:00] to, understandably, I say it with compassion, but too scared to stick their head out the window to see if their skills are transferable elsewhere.

[00:10:09] Jonny: And the wonderful thing about so many ex service people I've met and ex sports people I've met and, and actors, where certainly when I, when I was changing career, I had to go, well, what are my skills and where are they valuable and how can they improve other people's lives? Whereas I think, if you haven't had that inevitable change, you haven't had to ask yourself that question.

[00:10:35] David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I left, as you know, I left the army under a medical discharge after getting myself shot in Afghanistan, which was careless. I don't 

[00:10:47] Jonny: think you can take the blame for that. Maybe 

[00:10:51] David: my field craft wasn't up to scratch, but anyway. The. And I, and I, so I sort of left unexpectedly, [00:11:00] unexpectedly early in, in taking the long view of things.

[00:11:03] David: And so I had to go through that sort of exact questioning. What, what am I going to do now? How do I take what I know, what I think I'm good at? And maybe what I think I'm good at and maybe not as good at in reality. But anyway, let's, let's let's, let's start on the positive. And how do I apply that outside?

[00:11:19] David: To something that, that interests me importantly and has a, for me, a sense of purpose. Mm-Hmm. . Why, you know, the, why, why am I doing this? It starts to, the purpose starts to answer the why doesn't it? Mm-Hmm. , why, why do I do this? Whatever this is. And, and was it a, a nerve wracking time? Yeah, of course it was.

[00:11:38] David: But one of, one of the things I think you have to do is you need to understand who the person is when you peel the uniform off. Or the, or the running vest, or the suit, whoever, whatever it is you do, or the work jacket, who knows. So when you peel it off, who is underneath? Because we all have to some degree, I think, a sort of [00:12:00] a working persona, a work persona.

[00:12:04] David: And I think if we're, if we're not careful, we can start to believe our own propaganda that the work persona is actually us. 100%. And and to some degree, of course it's you, but it's part of you. And I, and I think. I sort of peeled my, my uniform off, where people know who you are, because it's, it's a uniform, people recognize uniform, and of course you've got a badge on the front which tells you what, where you sit in the organization and all that goes, all that goes with it.

[00:12:32] David: But of course that's for nothing when you leave. It doesn't count anymore. And and I find it to be really important to spend a bit of time reflecting on who David Richmond was, and therefore what I liked and what I didn't like. I was motivated by what I wasn't the things I felt, informed by the things I felt I was good at and interested in, as opposed to the things which I was not.

[00:12:59] David: Less good [00:13:00] at and less interested and so often those things go hand in hand good good at and interested and not so good at And not it and that does lead you down the line of okay, you're not so good at it because you can't be bothered Well, maybe that's the case. But anyway and That's a conversation.

[00:13:14] David: I've had with lots of people since You're in the same so transition situation And, and not confusing that with, with as you described, salary and lifestyle and, you know, those are sort of consequentials rather than who you are. And I, I, I found that. And I find actually when I'm doing, when I'm doing sort of maybe some group sessions or, or interviews, job interviews, so often people ask what I think is a slightly lily livered question.

[00:13:46] David: They would say, Johnny, you know, you're applying for this job. If I asked your, your three best friends, what would they say? How would they describe you? Well, that's sort of making, that's asking, that's putting the question one step removed. And therefore it's [00:14:00] slightly easier to answer because you can say, well I don't really know but how about this?

[00:14:03] David: But if I said to you, Johnny, how would you describe you? Who are you? Oh, difficult. That's a 

[00:14:10] Jonny: really difficult question. My heart going like 

[00:14:13] David: this. It's the same question, but it's just brought one step closer. It suddenly becomes personal. And it's not an easy question to answer. It's a horribly difficult question to answer.

[00:14:25] David: But I think it's a much more pertinent one. Who cares what your friends think? Well, who are you? 

[00:14:29] Jonny: You think most people can be honest about that? 

[00:14:33] David: I think some people can be honest. And I think some people would be, Some people would, would, wouldn't necessarily be dishonest, they might just not really know because they haven't really thought about it.

[00:14:47] David: And sometimes because it's difficult to articulate sometimes, or maybe they don't like the answer, or maybe the answer isn't one that they, you know, there's lots of reasons, but, but it, even if you can't articulate it, if [00:15:00] it makes you reflect on it, then I think that's a, that's a good start. Yeah, I 

[00:15:04] Jonny: think it's a good start.

[00:15:05] Jonny: Would you expect someone to be able to answer it, if you were asking that question in an interview? 

[00:15:11] David: I, I'd expect a slightly stumbly sort of answer. I mean, if somebody answered it too quickly, you'd think, I don't believe 

[00:15:19] Jonny: you. It's rehearsed. Yeah, 

[00:15:22] David: it's, it's too quick. It's like, it reminds me when I'm, you know, when my daughter's around, my daughter's in the twenties and you say, you know, you, you, you're out last night.

[00:15:29] David: Was it a date? No. Clearly it was a date. Yeah, it's one of those, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:15:38] Jonny: Hilarious. You know, when, when, when you were asking yourselves, yourself that question, those questions About what gets me out of bed and keeps me out of bed effectively. Why should I do whatever I should do? Was that was that a, a, a, [00:16:00] a, a difficult time?

[00:16:01] Jonny: Was it, was it quick? Did it take a long time? For me? 

[00:16:06] David: Well, it was, it was quite, yeah, it was quite difficult. I think you, it was quite difficult because it really, God, really made me think. I mean, I really had to think about it. But it actually surfaced, I think. Over time. And I, and I, and I'll be really honest, you know, I didn't, I didn't have the, I don't think we ever have the whole answer.

[00:16:26] David: should have, but there were things that became more apparent to me. The, the more the, I think the more experienced I became, the older I was, the sort of all that kinda stuff. The, the longer I thought about it, you know, I discovered, for me, discovered it. I found that, you know, I, I get my energy from, for a lot of, and from other people.

[00:16:44] David: You know, I like being part of a, a team with a purpose and a clarity and, and all that kinda stuff. So I like working with people. Developing people, I get, you know, I draw a lot of sort of, of Satisfied personal satisfaction from that and seeing people succeed, you know, I like [00:17:00] I hold integrity very dear I find and I discovered that when I thought some, you know This was going back a few years when I thought are you questioning my integrity and I thought it really got me I could I could feel myself sitting up.

[00:17:14] David: Yeah And I thought actually that that's told me something about what motivates me about the same important integrity as to me and And all that, you know, so that, that kind of, it was a, it was a sort of evolutionary process. I didn't, I don't think I sat down one day with a pencil and a bit of paper and worked it out.

[00:17:30] David: It was a sort of subliminal, sort of intuitive process over time, but, but started with, with clearly asking myself the question and then letting things percolate and, you know, understanding why certain situations or people irritate you. Why do they irritate you? Because there's something that rubs up against what you believe.

[00:17:56] David: what you hold dear. And you know, I think having [00:18:00] a, having a military background, I suppose you've subscribed to a set of values for so long. in an organization, which doesn't, it would say itself doesn't always get it right. Of course, it doesn't, but actually is driven by a set of values itself and a purpose.

[00:18:17] David: And like myself, that all informs the person that you are. And I think all our experiences inform who we are as we go. And you might change and it changes you over time. And I suspect you're different, you would have a different in some way, not wholly, but in some way, a different set of values, beliefs, or attitudes.

[00:18:40] David: than perhaps you had before you've had children.

[00:18:48] David: Your life events inform and change you and you take a different view. You know, I, when I was wounded and, and at Hedley Court, I thought before I went to [00:19:00] Headley Court that I knew people pretty well. You know, I was 41 years old or 42, whatever it was. It's a good age, David. It's a good age. Yes, I could still be there.

[00:19:11] David: And you know, I was a commanding officer and I'd been around a while. And I thought, you know, people. You understand that people take a lot. Actually, when I reflect back, I wasn't too far off, but actually what I discovered at Henley Court was just laid really bare for me was just how differently people are wired, which I don't think I'd fully appreciated before I turned up there.

[00:19:36] David: And of course it's in a very raw environment because it was through people who'd suffered life changing injuries. What I was big, what that laid laid out for me and laid bare for so many was how different people reacted to the adversity of that situation, and how they coped with it. And they all coped with it in the end, but they coped with it in their own ways.

[00:19:56] David: And therefore the sort of the nuances and the subtleties of people and [00:20:00] teams and were writ large for me then, and I took that away as a sort of really, for me, in terms of my approach to things, a really defining period of time. Yeah, 

[00:20:14] Jonny: I can imagine. Yeah, that's so interesting, because it's such a, it's such a clear example of when people are sort of put up against the wall, right, where, where, where their true selves will come out.

[00:20:35] Jonny: And this isn't with any judgment, because everyone's trying to get to A to B, and, and how you get from A to B is, is so personal. 

[00:20:44] David: Yeah, oh definitely, and the struggles some people had working out where B was. Yeah, for sure. And Ori, also the struggles, I suppose, to some degree, we all had, working out where we were, and what had changed, and what was the impact, and what did that mean, and, [00:21:00] and, and I think, you know, one of the things I took away from my military time and that was leadership in when things are going well is easy.

[00:21:12] David: Anybody can lead on an easy day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can all hold the cup above our head and say, yeah, we won, aren't we all great. Pat ourselves in the back, but your real metal as a leader, it comes through, whether that's personal leadership is leading yourself, which you've gotta do first of course, or team leadership, is when times are really tough and people really are looking at you for, for some direction and and, and some leadership to show them the way.

[00:21:37] David: And, and by which, by which I don't mean somebody just to shout at them and tell them what the next hill is over there, but, but to properly engage them and bring them together and move the whole thing on whatever the thing is and wherever you want to go. That's really hard when times are tough. And the same people who, who take the, take the plaudits of the good days have also to, to roll the sleeves up and get, [00:22:00] get dirty on the bad days.

[00:22:02] Jonny: Yeah. I mean, leadership isn't about giving the direction. That's, that's just, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Interesting, because, you know, I was thinking about purpose and, and leadership and all of those things. And I was talking to the guys about it at work and, and purpose is incredibly important to me.

[00:22:29] Jonny: And And I had two weeks ago I was lost, completely lost. I thought, God, it's all BS. It's all hot air purpose. Everything that we sell as a business that I believe as an individual, it's all nonsense. And and it was, it was really difficult.

[00:22:55] Jonny: And, you know, I sort of wallowed for a day, being incredibly [00:23:00] unproductive. And it, it wasn't until the next day that I realized that, that exactly, exactly what you say. When things are going well, it's very easy to define a purpose and come up with a set of values, which you all sort of connect to. And, and clap each other on the back.

[00:23:22] Jonny: But it's when things are tough that the purpose carries you, actually. And, and it's and, and strengthens you. And that's why it's so important to try and define it. Because when you come to the, even though it was, I was blinded from it. It was the purpose which stopped me giving up, even though I couldn't connect to it at that time.

[00:23:52] Jonny: It carried you through the harder times. Yeah, so [00:24:00] I connect to what you're saying, personally. You know, it's 

[00:24:03] David: interesting. And I think you need those, in an ironic way, you need those days of struggling a bit to allow you to have just that reflection. to recognize that actually having the, having the power, it was always there.

[00:24:17] David: Yeah. It's just that there'd been a bank of fog had appeared in front of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the following morning as I passed on. Yeah. I mean, somebody asked me the other day, you know, what, what, what to do with work and they said, what, what, what, what would, what would you like? What would you like to do?

[00:24:33] David: What do you like doing rather than what would you like to do? And I said, I'm pretty open with what I like doing. I'm, I'm much more, much more interested in doing it, doing it with people I like. Yeah. Yeah. For a cause I believe in, that has a clear purpose. Yeah, yeah. And those are the three things I left him.

[00:24:50] David: And I said, what it might be, is much less relevant to me than why. [00:25:00] And how am I doing it with a group of people I'm going to enjoy working with. And I think, you know, when you play that into a workplace so often, I think it's, things are changing. I mean, I absolutely, I totally believe things are changing and you can see them changing, but there are still a lot of workplaces.

[00:25:15] David: We're still very top down directive driven and nobody's terribly interested in you or. How interested you are, the contribution you might need to make beyond your desk. They're just interested in can you add to that bottom line? Well, that's the point at which whatever generation right now is Z or X or whatever it is.

[00:25:32] David: It's not 

[00:25:32] Jonny: X. We're X, David. 

[00:25:35] David: Oh, well, I think I'm more of a sort of, I'm probably in the middle of the alphabet, I think, in that one.

[00:25:41] David: But the current generation, and all credit to them, will, will give that the finger and move on. Yeah. They're not going to have it. And I think they're dead right for having a, a company culture and structure that [00:26:00] places a genuine interest in, in the young people you employ and the Nazi young people you employ, all the people you employ as a clear purpose and culture and, and, and an interest in developing them rather than what 1980s approach of where we pay you good money.

[00:26:19] David: Therefore we expect hard work. Yeah, they, they will work hard for you, but they also expect to be engaged, to be, to be led, to be developed, to have their views and ability to have their views expressed and listened to, and maybe acted on if they're good ones. And that, that's a much more difficult place for leaders to be, and it requires leadership, not management.

[00:26:42] David: Yeah, 

[00:26:42] Jonny: absolutely. That's the gear change. And I also think that it, for me, it sounds like a no brainer because it leads a business's resilience, but also a personal resilience as well, because we are not going to have one job for the rest of our lives that they don't exist anymore. [00:27:00] So we need that resilience and that curiosity and that curiosity to be, to be embraced by, by the mentors that, that are leading us.

[00:27:12] Jonny: We were talking at work again, I was sort of monologuing. It was probably a whole load of bananas, but I was talking about how I see leadership in, The workplace about certainly when you employ someone is that they, they are, they are lending you their career. And that is that that comes with the responsibility.

[00:27:37] Jonny: But if you see that as a responsibility, that lending of your, you lending, you are lending me your career. It means that because I respect that so much. There is a responsibility on you to, to give me everything that you can. I mean, and I don't mean that like work a million hours a day. I mean, to lend me your [00:28:00] values and your curiosity and your passions and your purpose.

[00:28:03] Jonny: And because then we can do something incredible. 

[00:28:07] David: Yeah, I agree. Totally. Totally. And I think that connection that flows through from that. Is, is what begins to, to, what was the great word? Alignment. It begins to align people, not just in the day to day, what are they doing, but what. But also on the, on the, on the why.

[00:28:27] David: If you, if you are, if there's an alignment around the, are you there, how you work, the engagement you have with your organization, how it supports you, how it will develop you, the pathways it can see for you as an individual, as well as as a team. And actually that doesn't just work, doesn't just talk about team, that operates as a team.

[00:28:50] David: I think that's, that's so important, you know, and that people often talk about the sort integration that comes with that. And the, and the [00:29:00] horizontal, the sort of vertical integration piece is really easy. They're all sort of like silos and stage pipes and all the other ones. But so rarely is the, is the key bit of that horizontal integration where, because you've got people aligned around the Y, They can look to their left and their right and see their colleagues and other teams, and you're all looking at the same pollster.

[00:29:20] David: And that, that starts to align, that starts to help people integrate horizontally as well as vertically. And that, I think, is when you've got such, you really do generate. synergy in an organization. And, and so much of that flows from the purpose. Why are we all here? 

[00:29:38] Jonny: Do you think this, we have to have one eye on the time, right?

[00:29:42] Jonny: So, but do you think that this is a luxury afforded only to the smaller companies? So you look at big, big multinationals.[00:30:00] 

[00:30:03] Jonny: The challenge I get all the time when I speak to people who work at big multinationals or companies that have floated is, is that, oh, well, the shareholders don't care about that. It's too competitive for us to do this, to, to align behind purpose. 

[00:30:19] David: I think that is a lazy smokescreen because it's quite hard.

[00:30:28] David: I think they're right. Shareholders to a large degree probably don't give much time to purpose, but that's a different, that's a different audience. And if I think if you can have a clarity of purpose in your organization, however big or small it is, given that staff that you have on board and these big organizations have got a lot of staff, then I think [00:31:00] they would reap the benefits of that on their bottom line, which they will say, well, that's what the shareholders are interested in.

[00:31:06] David: They're interested in the bottom line, not how we get there. Well, I think that that's a slightly simplistic view and it's also a very lazy one. And I, you know, I, I think that it also, that view also informs or something I've come across when I've worked in, in small teams supporting corporates is, is that's a short termism drives leaders who are further up the hierarchical tree focused downwards.

[00:31:37] David: to in effect start doing other people's jobs for them. That's not what they're paid for. That's not why you're there. And if you, if you have often asked this, he said, raise your hand if you like being micromanaged. Well, needless to say, nobody puts their hand up. Then you ask the same group of people, raise your hand if you feel you have been micromanaged and everybody's hand goes up.

[00:31:55] David: Because micromanagement is easy, isn't it? Because actually you probably mind you're doing what you used to do and just [00:32:00] telling somebody, and that's what really hacks off younger generation where you get hacked off generations for years by, but the younger generation won't put up with it. And if you employ really good people, let them get on with their job suitably guided and, and, and led and give them some autonomy.

[00:32:17] David: Cause if, if, if you're micromanaging, what, how does that get interpreted? Well, you don't trust me, do you? Of course. Why don't you trust me to do this? Why are you not delegating any of the responsibilities and decisions? As opposed to delegating just the work. 

[00:32:35] Jonny: Often the same micromanagers are the people who get frustrated that they have to make all the decisions.

[00:32:41] Jonny: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:32:41] David: And they haven't got any time. Well, you haven't got any time because you're busy doing his job or her job for her. Create the space that allows you to think about where you're going. But in the long term, that'll save you money, it won't cost you money. Of course, I mean, yeah. And I don't believe for a minute that these big organizations don't have the [00:33:00] resources to do it.

[00:33:01] David: They're not prepared to put the resources into doing it. Not that they don't have the resources to do it. And and I think they, they are missing a trick and I'm, I'm missing a very big trick and I think that they, they will, the good staff they've got will just go and be good staff somewhere else. Yeah, of course.

[00:33:20] David: Basically. Yeah. The young people won't, won't, won't tolerate it and neither should they. Yeah, 

[00:33:26] Jonny: I can. Yes, I completely agree. Yeah, 

[00:33:29] David: for big, big organizations. I'm not suggesting they're not busy. Everybody's busy, but busy doing what? Yeah, if you can't find time to think about your unity of purpose your purpose, your why why are you doing this?

[00:33:40] David: How are you going to line? How do you end up with like myself if you can't generate time to do that? What is more important? And there's a strong element of short term as unless they reporting the next quarterly profits for the channel was fine. That's one thing that's that's One aspect of what you do.

[00:33:57] David: It might be a big aspect, but it's one aspect. [00:34:00] The long term future of the organization, by and large, relies on the people in it, and how efficient and effective they can be, and how well led they are will inform that. There are other aspects to the long term future, but that's a key component of it. 

[00:34:19] Jonny: Yeah, I mean, the problem is that those people who are just thinking about the quarterly profits aren't probably connected themselves to, let alone anybody else, but connecting themselves to their individual purpose and company.

[00:34:36] Jonny: The owners haven't identified, they don't know why they're at the business in the first place. 

[00:34:41] David: And a bonus culture, which, which is focused totally on bottom line. The bottom line needs to be part of it. Of course it does. It doesn't Doesn't take that much more work. And, and, and also we also, in the bigger the organization, the more [00:35:00] corporate bureaucracy you get wrapped up in and, and, and you lose clarity and, and the ability to move with any alacrity, I suppose.

[00:35:07] David: But that again, comes back to where are the leaders. David, 

[00:35:14] Jonny: thank you so much. I can continue this conversation forever. There are so many questions that I have about this exact point. It's part of the conversation we're having, but thank you so much 

[00:35:28] David: for your time. A pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Great.

[00:35:32] Jonny: And let's speak soon. Let's grab a beer. 

[00:35:34] David: Absolutely. We must do that for sure. All right. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye.